"Timely Questions about Domestic Violence"

> Timely questions about domestic violence in the preaching
> community
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> Posted by Jennifer Delaney Nielsen on [10 May
> 2009 10:19AM]
>
>
> As I am sure most of you are aware now, Annika for years
> dealt with abuse at the hands of her husband. I think the
> nature of the beliefs and culture amongst the preachers and
> their families allowed it to go on far longer than it would
> have otherwise. I will explain below, with knowledge I have
> of this particular case.
>
> An abuser almost always seeks to separate his or her spouse
> from their friends and family. In this way, there is no
> counter to his or her control of the abused spouse. In this
> case, as Annika's husband was ordering her to no longer
> have contact with her family, Annika sought the advice from
> the wife of another preacher. This wife, true to her own
> beliefs, advised Annika that her husband is the head of the
> household and should be obeyed. Annika took her counsel to
> heart, and obeyed her husband, cutting herself off from her
> family, therecy extending her nightmare situation for years.
>
> I am a survivor of domestic abuse. I recognize the signs. A
> few years ago, I realized, merely from the words he typed,
> that this man was abusing Annika, and probably their
> children. I quietly approached someone in the preaching
> community about my concerns. While I trust that he was being
> sincere in his concern, and believed me that there could be
> a problem, there was some biblical injunction to making such
> accusations about a person without 'hard' proof (I
> do not remember the exact verse(s) cited). Therefore, he was
> not allowed to raise the alarm more widely in the preaching
> community.
>
> I tried then to reach Annika, but was unsuccessful because
> her husband was controlling all of her communications.
>
> As we all know, the belief about obeying your husband was
> also used many years ago to twist the mind of Andrea Yates.
> This was a horrific tragedy, also connected to the preaching
> community. Again, as with Annika, there was a preacher who
> had taken your beliefs to the extreme and used them to abuse
> another.
>
> I realize that these abusers are the exception, rather than
> the norm, amongst the families of preachers. I have spent
> time among you all, and while I do not agree with your
> beliefs, I have seen the many loving, functional families
> involved.
>
> However, I think there is a problem here that needs to be
> solved. How can the preaching community make itself better
> at recognizing the warning signs of abuse? How can it make
> itself better at monitoring and addressing that kind of
> situation?
>
> I ask, because even as I type, I know of one more wife of a
> preacher that is in an abusive situation. And so far,
> nothing is being done.
>
> I am writing this not to blame, but to create awareness. I
> know most of you well enough to know that you cherish family
> as the center of your lives (second only to god). How can
> this be fixed?
>
>
> .................
>
> Domestic violence in the preaching community
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> Posted by Dave Bronstein on [10 May 2009 05:43PM]
> In Reply to: Timely questions about domestic violence in
> the preaching community posted by Jennifer Delaney Nielsen
> on [10 May 2009 10:19AM]
> dave_bronstein@yahoo.com Notify me about Responses? (yes)
>
>
> Jennifer, thanks for your courageous involvement in abuse
> cases.
>
> I don't know if the problem can be fixed. We are
> fortunate today to have widespread communication like the
> internet. When anyone first learns of a wife being
> controlled, then beaten, we can approach her, her church
> community and if necessary, the police. We gather all
> evidence.
>
> Not all fundamentalist preachers abuse women. Smock,
> despite a smug streak towards women, would never harm one.
> He's decent to wife and kids. Most religious men are
> good..... some Humanist/Atheist men can be pigs too. It
> swings both ways.
>
> (It's Muslims who scare me. Qu'ran MANDATES
> wife-beating, contempt for females and overall male violence
> including honor killings, decapitation, terrorism, etc. God
> help females trapped in the Muslim world).
>
> Best we can do is get the message out-- no matter what
> religion women chose, they need NEVER tolerate abuse in
> marriage. Let them know help is out there. Teach your
> daughters to recognize signs of potential abusers...
> especially those who manipulate Bible passages to enforce
> blind obedience to some nut's whims. Get them educated
> with job skills, private bank account, etc., pre-nup
> contract.
>
> This Preacher Saga could almost be documented for public tv
> and police training videos. Bet Portland is sick of him.
> ..................
>
> Imagine no religion
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> Posted by Dave Bronstein on [10 May 2009 06:09PM]
> In Reply to: Timely questions about domestic violence in
> the preaching community posted by Heathen-Inside on [10 May
> 2009 04:31PM]
> dave_bronstein@yahoo.com Notify me about Responses? (yes)
>
>
> Heathen, you're right that religious books/traditions
> have subjugated females for centuries, often with horrible
> results: legalized wife-beating, denial of civil rights and
> education, even burning at the stake for witchcraft during
> the 'Age of Faith'.
>
> Still, it can work both ways -- provided religious men
> function within the modern world where beating is no longer
> tolerated. For example, the late Jerry Falwell respected the
> women of his family. They were high achievers. Jerry was a
> good guy though I thoroughly rejected the Bible-thumping.
>
> Often preachers who abuse women are on the margins anyhow,
> like that nut (Woroniecki) who badgered Andrea Yates into
> killing her babies. Or the Mormon prophet who kidnapped that
> blonde kid. Or the Porland Nut who posted here. These guys
> barely hold a job and live in a psycho-world.
>
> Imagine no religion... would we men be kinder? Maybe ... if
> we're influenced enough by humanism, compassion, etc. We
> got a long way to go. Meanwhile, plenty of men who espouse
> Atheism, who'd mock Smock's preaching, speak of
> women with the C word and boast they live only to F.
> ..........................
>
>
> Timely questions about domestic violence in the preaching
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> Posted by webbie on [10 May 2009 01:44PM]
> In Reply to: Timely questions about domestic violence in
> the preaching community posted by Jennifer Delaney Nielsen
> on [10 May 2009 10:19AM]
> jbaber@prodigy.net Notify me about Responses? (yes)
>
> Jennifer,
>
> I have dealt with Daniel off and on over the years. The
> preaching community did not turn impotent in the worsening
> of the problem. Several of us, on more than one occasion,
> attempted to reason with Daniel concerning his aberrant
> behaviour. I tried at least three times. But as with any
> other sociopath, Daniel would no more listen to us than to
> anyone else. We ourselves were turned away, complete with
> curses and judgments. The preaching community has disavowed
> Daniel for years. His sociopathic delusion is demonic and
> holds his mind in a steel trap.
>
> What do you suggest we might have done? None of us were
> personaly aware of any actual evidence of wrongdoing. Even
> in the world, action will not be taken on the basis of
> second hand information. If you were the one with first hand
> information sufficient to meet the test for legal
> intervention, then you were the one with the responsibility
> to intervene, not us. We can not discipline someone unless
> they are submitting to our authority. We are not like the
> state whose authority is backed by soldiers, guns and tanks.
> He had already been 'thrown out' from our midst for
> some time. What could we have threatened him with? Being
> thrown out?
>
> Bro Cope
> .............................
>
> Timely questions about domestic violence in the preaching
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> Posted by Jennifer Delaney Nielsen on [10 May
> 2009 03:30PM]
> In Reply to: Timely questions about domestic violence in
> the preaching community posted by webbie on [10 May 2009
> 01:44PM]
>
>
> I agree with your assessment of him. And I know he was
> disavowed and 'thrown out.' But didn't that
> serve to isolate Annika more?
>
> Do you make it a habit of only intervening when there is
> evidence sufficient for legal intervention? Because, in the
> case of domestic violence, such evidence is rare. It is
> almost always a matter of 'where there's smoke,
> there's fire.' Abusers are usually very careful.
>
> No, he was not submitting to your authority. However, he
> must submit to legal authorities. Even though I did not have
> enough legal proof to have him convicted myself, this is
> what investigators are for.
>
> I did, indeed, intervene. I have been doing so, in concert
> with others who refused to merely cut off contact with him,
> for over 2 years now behind the scenes. We have been
> collecting his writings and behaviors and disseminating it
> to authorities and others involved. It is the reason why the
> authorities have gotten involved. We have kept at it for
> YEARS.
>
> You cannot simply wash your hands of it if you knew there
> was, in all likelihood, trouble!
> .......................................
>
> Timely questions about domestic violence in the preaching
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> Posted by Halacha on [10 May 2009 08:27PM]
> In Reply to: Timely questions about domestic violence in
> the preaching community posted by Jennifer Delaney Nielsen
> on [10 May 2009 03:30PM]
>
>
> Hello Jennifer:
>
> How can an Internet community protect others? How do they
> KNOW someone is being abused? If they don't actually
> witness it, they aren't a witness. If you didn't see
> it, taste it, hear it or smell it, it doesn't hold
> water.
> How does a community like this hold a person accountable
> when they refuse to submit to any authority, always claiming
> their authority is no one but God and God told them this or
> that? How does the Internet community prevent the spouse
> from becoming isolated? What control do they have? What are
> the parameters?
>
> I never knew so many people were involved with this
> particular family until I began receiving emails from people
> I didn't know. I'm actually kind of glad...I've
> met some really neat people through several years of putting
> up with it all. There was/is a lot of good I see in all of
> this.
> I knew from letters I received from Annika way back in
> 2002. I knew how to read between the lines and then I met
> her in April, 2003 and knew for sure just by her body
> language.
>
> Another question...sometimes it takes a very long time for
> an abused person to get the help they need...they themselves
> refuse it and back the abuser. I know women (sorry, men) who
> have suffered and endured abuse for many, many years before
> they get their heads back on semi-straight, and then it
> takes them many more to get their on straight. Thinking of
> one Christian woman who has endured her husband's abuse
> for more than 20 years. She believes she is to take it and
> submit to her husbands every whim. 'Wives obey your
> husbands' seems to be all anyone remembers. They
> conveniently forget...'as is appropriate in the
> Lord.'
> Every religious organization or denomination has its share
> of wackadoos, I'm sure. Some more than others...
>
> I have several problems with the preaching community as
> I've known it. I admit I haven't had much exposure
> to it because I ran from it. I also admit I don't know
> the preachers you have used as examples in your posts here.
> I may just have been so lucky (blessed??) to have met some
> of the nut jobs instead. I'm not impressed, but my
> beliefs are a bit different than what I've seen of
> theirs, anyhow.
>
> .....................
>
> Timely questions about domestic violence in the preaching
> community
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> Posted by webbie on [10 May 2009 04:25PM]
> In Reply to: Timely questions about domestic violence in
> the preaching community posted by Jennifer Delaney Nielsen
> on [10 May 2009 03:30PM]
> jbaber@prodigy.net Notify me about Responses? (yes)
>
> You cannot simply wash your hands of it if you knew there
> was, in all likelihood, trouble!
>
> There is a line like a super highway between suspecting or
> thinking there might be problems because of your personal
> experience tells you so, and knowing. You may assume we
> 'knew' or should have 'known' but it is just
> your bias based upon your experience. You are predisposed to
> assume your gut feel is the same as evidence. We on the
> other hand are constrained to always assume the best unless
> we have personal knowledge to the opposite. Your position,
> and your criticism of us is a form of bigotry. You assume
> fault where there is none. We had no knowledge of Daniel
> abusing his wife. Because you think we 'ought' to
> have known is just a projection of fault, an assertion of
> supposed fault, not a statement of fact. It isn't good
> enough to assert blame.
>
> wm
> ......................
>
> Timely questions about domestic violence in the preaching
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> Posted by Jennifer Delaney Nielsen on [10 May
> 2009 04:46PM]
> In Reply to: Timely questions about domestic violence in
> the preaching community posted by webbie on [10 May 2009
> 04:25PM]
> delaney.53@osu.edu Notify me about Responses? (yes)
>
> I am not trying to be mean here. No bigotry - as you could
> read before, I said that this is the exception, and that the
> vast majority are loving, functional families. My statement
> means that preaching families are this way despite believing
> in things that I don't.
>
> I am sure that my personal experience and study of abuse
> had to do with me identifying it early. However, it was not
> merely a gut feeling. There was already plenty of evidence
> of his beliefs about family roles and expectations, together
> with the eyewitness accounts of those who had been around
> them, that led to this conclusion.
>
> If you say that you had absolutely no inkling that there
> was abuse going on, Bro, then I do believe you. But if this
> is the case, then what must happen in order to lead you to
> believe that there is danger of abuse going on?
>
> When your beliefs are lived as you and Jed and Ruben live
> them, then they lead to warm, loving families with no more
> or less problems than other families. What I am saying is
> that your belief system is one that can easily be hijacked
> to serve the whims of abusive individuals, due to the power
> that it gives one member of the household.
>
> I can think of four instances of family abuse in your
> community off the top of my head - and I will not name
> names, but each is a tragedy, and in each case, the
> community did nothing to intervene. What I am asking is,
> isn't there a way for the members of the preaching
> community to educate themselves and become more aware of the
> danger signs?
> .................................
>
> Timely questions about domestic violence in the preaching
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> Posted by oscar on [12 May 2009 02:07PM]
> In Reply to: Timely questions about domestic violence in
> the preaching community posted by Jennifer Delaney Nielsen
> on [10 May 2009 04:46PM]
> skyman86004@mypacks.net Notify me about Responses? (yes)
>
> Chris Barr knew and witnessed problems when the subject
> person went to visit him around 2007 or so but I don't
> know if he conveyed that to anyone, and also there are state
> lines that interfere with reporting anything.
>
> The problem with 'the one who cannot be named' is
> that he would have used SOMETHING, anything, to seek his ego
> gratification and for a theatrical stage. It could have been
> anarchist politics; it could have been a heavy metal band
> (if he could play some instrument); it could have been
> obsessive stock market wheeler-dealing or some other kind of
> 'performance art' - but the skewing of events to
> make out that he was 'winning,' would be there,
> along with the claim of perfectionism and the projecting of
> his own vices into others. That is what he came with, and
> none of the street preachers put it there. It also explains
> why he never does what normal people do, which is to review
> and reassess his success in reaching his goals (ie. if this
> isn't working, should I revise something?)
>
> In retrospect, the unnamed person just latched onto street
> preaching as a way to 'be seen,' and blended it with
> sinless doctrine and with the Messianic movement because
> those things fit his needs. Like the original street
> preachers, the Messianic groups had no idea their search for
> Jewish roots would be fused into the irrational bundle (they
> just provided 'costume' and bits of distinctive
> celebrations and language to the program).
>
> I suppose one could argue that the Messianic emphasis on
> Torah nevertheless came across as stronger than Jesus, and
> therefore they are also partly 'responsible.' But
> I'm not actually arguing that anyone is
> 'responsible' for an extremist using these
> influences. I would just like to reflect on one element of
> street preaching that triggered this person, who again I
> stress had pre-existing problems. This is not about the open
> air venue or the theology, but about the 'attack
> mode' of delivery. And since the person not named could
> never discipline himself, the attack format fit perfectly
> into a mind that needed a way to avoid the rigors of concern
> for others and the ultimate effect of poor choices when
> packaging a message (any message). Notice that Jesus
> attacked authorities but was fairly gentle with the masses,
> even sinners. However, the unnamed person thought he had a
> way to be an all times everywhere 'bad boy' and get
> a 'free pass.' Maybe a re-evaluation
> of shouting at people and making a scene out of faith
> rather than an attraction is overdue. Intervening in the
> troubled family life could have been too much to expect, but
> admitting how that operating motif affected an immature and
> unstable mind is something else again, because it eventually
> rippled out into a huge avalanche. And if it was negative in
> such hands, is it really all that great at any time?
>
> In the end, the one who cannot be named hasn't grasped
> the simple fact that he has not succeeded in winning even
> ONE 'convert' following 'Torah' as he puts
> it, not after 10 years of wanting to street preach even more
> than support his family. Surely calmer minds, even if they
> have a few victories, have to think at least some about
> unintended consequences (although I know they also do more
> things in their overall ministry). And I do submit this with
> all due respect. We just have to be careful that because we
> know are 'sincere,' we don't loose sight of
> whether we are necessarily that effective.
>
>
> .....................
>
> Forced Psychiatric Evaluation?
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> Posted by Dave Bronstein on [12 May 2009 06:26PM]
> In Reply to: Timely questions about domestic violence in
> the preaching community posted by oscar on [12 May 2009
> 02:07PM]
> dave_bronstein@yahoo.com Notify me about Responses? (yes)
>
>
> Could this guy's family force a psychiatric evaluation
> and/or commitment to a hospital?
>
> This is not to violate anybody's rights. But you have
> to balance his rights against any harm to himself or others.
> He again got fired from a job, sent to jail, custody battle,
> bills piling up, maybe no permanent home, etc. An explosive
> mixture for an unstable man. Before he again attempts
> marriage and 10 more babies, or starting some cult, he
> should be restrained.
> ...........................
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ...............................
>
> Arrested for Breaking his Restraining Order
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> Posted by Jennifer Delaney Nielsen on [10 May
> 2009 09:51AM]
>
>
> The Man Who Cannot Be Named sent an email to his mother
> telling her to relay a message to his ex-wife stating that
> she had 24 hours to meet his demands. He reposted this email
> on my Facebook page for all to see. He has been arrested and
> is now being held in the county jail. Last time he broke the
> restraining order, he was held for 30 days. Let us hope, for
> the sake of his ex and children, that he is held for longer
> this time.
> ..............
>
> Arrested for Breaking his Restraining Order
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> Posted by Dave Bronstein on [10 May 2009 05:23PM]
> In Reply to: Arrested for Breaking his Restraining Order
> posted by Jennifer Delaney Nielsen on [10 May 2009 09:51AM]
> dave_bronstein@yahoo.com Notify me about Responses? (yes)
>
>
> Sounds like a psycho terrorist -- wanting demands met.
>
> How are his ex-wife and 6 kids coping? Somebody has to
> pitch in and pay the bills. Can't imagine the
> preacher's job will be held open while he's
> incarcerated. (Personally I've never even hired a man
> with an arrest record, let alone hold a job open).
> ...............
>
> Arrested for Breaking his Restraining Order
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> Posted by Jennifer Delaney Nielsen on [10 May
> 2009 06:52PM]
> In Reply to: Arrested for Breaking his Restraining Order
> posted by Dave Bronstein on [10 May 2009 05:23PM]
>
>
>
> He had already lost his job about a week before his arrest.
> I called his boss and verified it myself. I do not know the
> reason for the termination, but I cannot imagine his normal
> modus operandi would be welcome in the workplace.
>
> I have not asked her how the bills are being paid. She has
> a lot of family surrounding her, and she is back in college,
> so she is working towards a better future.
> ..............
>
> for Breaking his Restraining Order
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> Posted by Rodney Timmons on [12 May 2009 01:45AM]
> In Reply to: Arrested for Breaking his Restraining Order
> posted by Jennifer Delaney Nielsen on [10 May 2009 06:52PM]
> rodney@sti.net Notify me about Responses? (yes)
>
> I talked to the VP of NetBiz last week, he was let go apirl
> 30th on a thursday. I then called and broke the news to his
> wife.
> ............
>
> Practical Matters
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> Posted by Dave Bronstein on [10 May 2009 07:16PM]
> In Reply to: Arrested for Breaking his Restraining Order
> posted by Jennifer Delaney Nielsen on [10 May 2009 06:52PM]
> dave_bronstein@yahoo.com Notify me about Responses? (yes)
>
>
> A young woman with 6 kids, no breadwinner husband, has her
> hands full. Glad the family helps, for the children's
> sake.
>
> Still, it's unfair to demand grandparents re-enter the
> workforce to support 6 kids sired by a psycho. Daniel
> created that mess, he should pay. I'd be in court suing
> his sorry butt for every cent, and slam him in prison for
> any assault and battery, mental abuse, harassment, etc.